Lumbar Rail

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Lumbar Rail

Postby Donald Todd » Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:10 pm

I've finally got round to putting together the two Cherry children's chairs I made parts for this time last year. On the spindle backed one, I had some idea of making the first rung above the seat straight, not curved as those above. The idea of this was to give better lumbar support. I would be interested in anyone's experience in this aspect of design. This was the first site I found. Note that the lumbar rail bends forward.
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SD531382_1.jpg
Chair Side Frame
SD531382_1.jpg (165.32 KiB) Viewed 4552 times
Last edited by Donald Todd on Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lumbar Rail

Postby Kevin Downing » Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:39 pm

Donald,
I shall toss in my euro's worth: My immediate answer is that a child will not stay put too long to find out. My second thought is that if the top bar (above the spindles) is curved, so should the bottom rung, at least for aesthetics. If you like, the back-panel spindle assembly wraps around the childs back in the vertical plane, if you ignore the lean of chair. Next I would say have an even number of spindles so none are in contact with the spine. Lastly I would say the ideal shape for a chair back is to match the human shape. On full size chairs I find lathbacks very comfortable. The laths are steam bent to an S shape to mimic the human form and hug my lower back snugly. Four and five were comfortable even though I said have an even number. My spindlebacks have four spindles. Sorry to digress so far from your original question. Probably telling you things you already know.
Now, a bunch of questions:
Last weekend I made spindles and rungs for a childs spindleback chair and put them to dry. I'll make legs when I am ready to steam bend them and assemble it. At the moment I want to make it 70% the size of an adults chair and should be suitable for a 5 year old. The important dimensions are seat height (about 325mm) and seat width (325mm) to suit the child and then work out that scale and make the other components accordingly. Using four spindles. I am intending a chair without arms but looking at photos arms make it far more secure for such an age. What do you think?
I have made a 2/3rd size 5 slat ladderback and am pleased but have not seen it in use as it went to Brighton. I had a 5yo sit in it momentarily for size which was fine but he got distracted and moved away. Photo attached, childs armchair. Second photo attached is KevinChairskids: Notice how the boys using the arms look more secure? Left to right are adult spindleback, childs armchair, big adult armchair. The boy on the spindleback probably has his feet on the front rung and is not leaning back, as it is an adults chair. So shouldn't I have arms on my intended childs spindleback? I would like to use flat arms but they would have to be shaved, not turned which goes against my logic: have all parts turned or shaved, not both. Are you using turned ones?
Hope the photos help.
Kevin
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KevinsChairsKids.JPG
KevinsChairsKids.JPG (77.48 KiB) Viewed 4542 times
childs armchair.JPG
childs armchair.JPG (35.24 KiB) Viewed 4542 times
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Re: Lumbar Rail

Postby Donald Todd » Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:13 pm

Kevin,
I am quite aware that a child won't sit long enough; so it won't matter if I get it wrong!
The aim was to have a broad straight lumbar rail then two curved rail with four spindles, then possibly even a third curved "cushion rail" at the very top. I agree on an even number of spindles. My client; 3yo prefers arms, but parents don't seem to favor rockers. This and this are 2/3 size with the seat at 10-1/2" and should be good up to 8yo. I think these turned arms are too skinny, so I made the latest fatter and shaved the top flat at the front.


Sorry I can't post any other pictures: the Web Site is full up!
Last edited by Donald Todd on Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lumbar Rail

Postby Kevin Downing » Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:10 pm

I can view the photos, they look fantastic. I would not have known straight away they were childrens chairs, the legs and rungs are all scaled down so the proportions look well. My first attempt ended up with chunky legs. I have seen the double top curved rung on full size chairs but not a third rung. Afraid I cannot comment any further on the lumbar rail as I have made all of mine curved.
Kevin
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Re: Lumbar Rail

Postby Donald Todd » Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:28 pm

Actually, the posts are a bit on the thick side 1-1/8" and the rail tenons are 1/2", so it's not a true 2/3 scaling as I make "adult" tenons5/8" into 1-1/2" posts. I think chair makers in the past made Kid's chairs chunky, partly because they didn't have the smaller tools, as well as knowing the chairs would come in for a lot more abuse. Here is another one but this is almost full size. This is a Jack Hill design and was common as a child's chair from the old catalogues. It is very uncomfortable as the bow digs into your spine.
These are the back parts for the current chair.
Back elements.jpg
Back elements.jpg (240.57 KiB) Viewed 4492 times

and its predecessor.
's Chair.jpg
Tess's Chair
's Chair.jpg (127.32 KiB) Viewed 4492 times
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Re: Lumbar Rail

Postby Donald Todd » Sat Oct 02, 2010 2:14 pm

Kevin, thinking about whether to mix turned and shaved parts, I see no reason not to mix them. It depends how well you finish each and how much decoration you add. Parts should be comparable and I think this chair is over decorated at the front: the back posts are shaved. My spindle back is a much better balance. I have a temptation to over decorate when turning, forgetting the overall effect.
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Re: Lumbar Rail

Postby Kevin Downing » Mon Oct 04, 2010 9:59 am

Donald,
I actually like your front leg decorations (Wych Chair picture). When I first saw the picture I thought it all looked in proportion and all parts comparable - all turned. Your back legs that are shaved look like they were turned.
I will stick with my original plan of a childs spindleback without arms for now as the parts are made. A child's spindleback with arms will be for another time and your front leg decoration will probably inspire me to do something similar with mine. If I can remember. My full size spindlebacks have just one front decorative rung. They have shaved top rails so I have actually mixed shaved with turned. But they look fine.
Kevin
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Re: Lumbar Rail

Postby Donald Todd » Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:10 pm

Here's the part finished chair, showing the straight "lumbar" rail, with curved rails above. This chair has more flare (and flair) than the previous spindle back.
Attachments
Lumbar Rail.jpg
Lumbar Rail.jpg (183.53 KiB) Viewed 4345 times
Cherry #1.jpg
Cherry #1.jpg (104.45 KiB) Viewed 4345 times
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