Wanted - new or 2nd hand Hook/Crook/Spoon Knife

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Re: Wanted - new or 2nd hand Hook/Crook/Spoon Knife

Postby louvres » Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:12 pm

Hi Jane, that looks like the cheapest price which the 164 is sold at, thanks for the tip if I get the mora 164 I will use that shop :D
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Re: Wanted - new or 2nd hand Hook/Crook/Spoon Knife

Postby Jane » Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:57 pm

I got a little opinel no 6 penknife at the same time for £5.99, since the postage was the same. (not for spooncarving, just to have in my purse for emergencies). I've only used it to open a parcel and cut a banana so far but it is a lovely little knife. :D
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Re: Wanted - new or 2nd hand Hook/Crook/Spoon Knife

Postby louvres » Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:04 pm

The opinels look well made yes and I think they're popular, and well priced. I might get a classic mora fixed blade to help with the carving as I need a stronger knife for that which can't close on my fingers, the fixed blades seem to be cheaper than the hook knives. I think most or all of the opinels can lock though.
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Re: Wanted - new or 2nd hand Hook/Crook/Spoon Knife

Postby ToneWood » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:52 pm

Opinel's have great, sharp carbon steel blades and can offer great value but I find their handles & "safety" ring less than optimal (less than safe for that matter). Mind you don't brush the cutting edge when turning the locking ring. Haven't tried the new plastic handled ones though.

Last year, this place (Moonraker knives) sold the basic Mora Clipper carbon steel (my favorite knife) for about £8.50 inc. shipping - fantastic value. http://www.moonrakerknives.co.uk/frostsmora.htm
Looks like the price went up a couple of quid recently (still great value though) although they still offer something similar for about £7.50. The Clipper's plastic handle & sheath are excellent IMHO, it has great grip and you can clip it into into a deep pocket for example. My old, long lost and much missed Clipper recently showed up, the sheath is a little different from the replacement I bought but both old & new designs are very good. I've ground Swedish carving bevels on one of my Clippers (more by absent minded force of habit than intention) , the other retains the normal Bushcraft secondary bevel for easy maintenance and longevity.

Also check out forum member Sean Hellman's website, he sells Mora knives and, I believe, gives them a quick check & tweak if necessary before shipping (although all my Scandinavian knives arrived super sharp - even my secondhand 30+ year old fish filleting knife :)).

I was half tempted to offer you my spoon knives, as I haven't carved a spoon for ages - I'm much more into bowls than spoons - but I really should make some more spoons, it is excellent practice. I don't particularly like either of my my hook knives. The Mora 164 was good to start with but once you try a better knife (like the Hans Karlsson) it just doesn't measure up anymore, at least that was my experience. I still find the Mora 164 handy for cutting finger grooves occasionally though. It still has the original double bevel - seems to work well enough, it's no exactly a normal double bevel. I've cut my palm several times using the Hans Karlsson (never did with the Mora) and it tends to want to always cut the same size/shape bowl - while I realize these are really problems with my technique (or lack of it), they are problems none-the-less (I had hoped to attend Spoonfest last year and sort this out but missed it and, unfortunately will again this year :( ). I was sceptical about suggestions to get matching right & left-handed hook knives - but I now concede that might well help. I'd personally be inclined to try a spoon knife (or indian Crook knife) by Ben Orford or perhaps a Welsh Twca Cam by Nic Westermann now - but which model/size/shape (or Del Stubbs in the USA or SD in Sweden)? Probably a fairly shallow/flat curve, perhaps a small-ish one would be my current preference. If you can make your own, so much the better - make several shapes and sizes & let us know which you prefer ;)
Last edited by ToneWood on Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Wanted - new or 2nd hand Hook/Crook/Spoon Knife

Postby louvres » Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:01 pm

Opinels carbon steel knives do look great yes, though Im also unsure of the lock/handle so think a fixed blade would be better for me for the long term.

I planned to get a fixed blade mora/frost from moonraker knives, they do have great prices yes. Mora/frost have a great reputation for their straight carving knives so it seems like a good option, and yeah you get that handy sheath. I've seen sean hellman's shop yes but because he sharpens the knives (which is great) that he sells they are a little more expensive. It seems most people remove the secondary bevel from the mora 164 knives, all I can think of why they do it so in the factory is because it would take too long to make a single (skandi?) bevel.

aw shucks, well if you change your mind let me know! :P I like that there are many handmade knives and would prefer them, but because of the extra time and effort people have to understandably sell them for more than the mass produced stuff to make a profit etc. I've heard of people getting a right and left handed spoon knife yes, I also wondered about how much it would help. I have no experience in making tools so I'm worried I'll muck it up and make something unusable that might put me off and be a waste of money, though if I had the stuff lying around I would definitely have a go, but do not have any retired tools that I can scavenge material from, and rarely can access a grinder for making bevels and reshaping etc. Might be worth investing now in a premade knife to make sure I have a smoother start and be sure that I have a reasonably decent knife to start learning to carve with. Thank you for the observations.
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Re: Wanted - new or 2nd hand Hook/Crook/Spoon Knife

Postby ToneWood » Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:25 pm

louvres wrote:...Ive seen a ready made spoon knife blade for sale for quite cheap: http://www.springfields.co.uk/bushcraft ... blade.html
But the tang is so short, im worried about getting it secure in the handle, would mean buying epoxy too. I have a little bit of epoxy type putty but I think its the wrong type.

Looks interesting. I wouldn't use epoxy putty. I recently bought several packs of 2-part epoxy off ebay at around £1 a set inc. spreader (my local cheap hardware store stopped carrying this cheap but effective glue and started carrying only the hyper-expensive name-brand stuff at 7x-12x the price :( - far too expensive to be worthwhile in most of my uses and its basically the same product). Check the tube volumes before you purchase & get the fairly big ones (£1).
Last edited by ToneWood on Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Wanted - new or 2nd hand Hook/Crook/Spoon Knife

Postby louvres » Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:42 pm

ok thanks
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Re: Wanted - new or 2nd hand Hook/Crook/Spoon Knife

Postby Vicky » Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:39 pm

The blade that you saw on the Springfields website....
James the guy at Mora sent me a left handed one to try ( with the handle it fits into) i found it very difficult to carve with , just too flat, for me just way too different from my Ben Orford spoon knife. Apparently some people do carve spoons with them though, but I tried hard to 'like' it as it's not often I get freebies to try but couldn't make it work. I've got 2 left-handed knives on ebay but that no use to you :(
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Re: Wanted - new or 2nd hand Hook/Crook/Spoon Knife

Postby tmcox » Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:15 am

I got my Mora 162 from Clas Ohlson. They do online stuff but they also have stores in a lot of major towns / cities in europe. They're a swedish (I think) firm that have spread like ikea. I know there's a store in Manchester (centre) and Newcastle (somewhere). I also got my Mora 120 at the same time - ridiculously cheap.

Edit: Link http://www.clasohlson.com/uk/b/hardware/hand-tools/knives-and-whetstones Mora 120 = 12.99 and Mora 162 = 16.99, these are more expensive than I remember though I may have a 'rosy' memory...
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Re: Wanted - new or 2nd hand Hook/Crook/Spoon Knife

Postby louvres » Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:47 am

Vicky: Thanks for the comments. I know some people seem to dislike them, others recommend removing the secondary bevel, that is maybe the cause of some of the negative feedback, and others seem to like them a lot. Yeah I could sharpen the other side and make it like a double edged spoon knife, but I'd like a blunt side to help guide the cuts with my thumb you know? Thanks though. (unless it is free lol)

tmcox: I came across them when looking for the cheapest shops that sold mora knives, but as I was looking for the mora 106 (or a knife of similar length) and the 164 I moved on. Moonraker knives sells the Classic No. 2/0 at £11.95 which is the right length for me. The 162 is double edged so I can't push it with my thumb for leverage or control on cuts, otherwise I would have considered it. I know, mora/frost knives used to be a Lot cheaper, but the sellers who see their popularity began upping their prices for profit. I know of two shops who sell the 164 and 106 at a great price but they are sold out :cry: thanks for the comments.
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Re: Wanted - new or 2nd hand Hook/Crook/Spoon Knife

Postby ToneWood » Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:22 pm

Rather than greed, I suspect this most recent price hikes (which were dramatic) are more to do with (1) the huge, sudden devaluation of the pound a few years ago (presumably because our economy was in such a shocking state - with the banking crisis and massive public & private debts - & we want people to buy more from us), (2) George "20 'cent" Osbourne put VAT up to 20% in order to help "balance the books" - with only moderate success so far :( and(3) inflation which was rather high for a few years (apparently it acts as an indirect tax, so popular with feckless governments). A few years ago £1 bought more than $2, now more like $1.55 - that hurts us as consumers but makes British goods cheaper for many foreign buyers.

I have the Mora 106 & 120 (and the 105). I find the former a bit longer than I would like but it's good for bigger stuff and I figure it will grind down shorter over time (see Wille Sundqvist's knives :D). I much prefer to switch to the shorter 120 for smaller and more detailed work - it's safer IMHO. Mora do offer a well regarded knife that is in between those two sizes, the Craft Punchline (available from Sean/Amazon), but it's stainless steel rather than laminated carbon steel. The 105 is the same size as the 106, different handle.

Image
http://www.seanhellman.com/woodwork/tools.php

By the way, it's easy to get caught up in finding the best price (which is important in keeping price rises under control) but bear in mind the price differences here can be trivial while the level of service received can vary considerably.
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Re: Wanted - new or 2nd hand Hook/Crook/Spoon Knife

Postby louvres » Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:52 pm

Yes I suspected that everything going down the drain had something to do with it. But when I saw one shop sold mora knives for exactly £10 (all sold out though) and others sold it for over £21 I got the feeling they were using the brand's popularity to increase their prices. The small business owners and consumers always suffer though yes when the economy starts falling apart.

I was looking at both the 120 and 106, though this review by robin wood seems to encourage getting the longer 106 - http://greenwood-carving.blogspot.com/2 ... g-and.html

So I'm not sure. I can see why a smaller knife might be handier for detailed work. I was debating getting the carbon steel mora classic 2/0 with a 75mm blade and the 164, if I cannot find a second hand hook knife. The next jump up in spoon knives is quite large. I understand though that you could invest in a great knife though more expensive rather than a bad cheap one.
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Re: Wanted - new or 2nd hand Hook/Crook/Spoon Knife

Postby ToneWood » Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:49 pm

I'm not familiar with the other Mora knives but I believe the classic designs are well regarded. Yes, I've read Robin's knife article, his advice is usually spot-on in my experience, so if you are primarily wood-carving, go for the 106. Apparently at Spoonfest 2012 one of the carvers did everything including some impressive decorative carving with a 106. I've tried decorative carving with the 106 but found it frightening - less so with the 120 but these days I use small bladed knives from Ben Orford for that. But there is definitely something to be said for using/owning only a very small set of tools (e.g. 1 knife, 1 axe, 1 draw-knife, 1 hook knife, 1 adze, 1 bowl gouge, 1 bow saw) that you know well. Robin is right about the slim flexible tip of the 106 sloyd knife being handy in some situations.
BTW The 106 comes with a better fitting sheath than the 120 (although either sheath will fit either knife), & the flimsy "sheath" (more of a blade cover) for the 105 is pathetic & inadequate IMHO. The longer, heavier blade of the 106 also holds the knife in the sheath better.

If you use just one knife (e.g. 106), you'll get used to it and will likely develop techniques to do all that you need to do. Just be careful. Learn or develop some safe "grips" and think ahead as to where the knife will/can go (a useful tip from Gavin, or was it Sean?). Early on, I cut myself with the 120 & the 106, mainly I think from misjudging the length (or lack of it). If you are at all unsure about a cut, don't make it! Stop, re-think, consider other approaches/grips/positions.

Have you checked out this place: http://www.lakelandcoppiceproducts.co.u ... stools.htm
Hook knife £8.30 hook knife? http://www.lakelandcoppiceproducts.co.u ... g1300r.htm :)
Mora 105* £9.62 :)
*BTW the blade of the 105 is identical to the 106 to my eye - just the handle & sheath are different. The handle is fine, the "sheath" is rubbish - make your own or wrap in leather Ben Orford style.
Take a look at Ian's other products too though.

Mind you, if you can find a few hours of (extra) work somewhere, you could probably afford "the pick of the litter".

Cheaper in America, despite the Atlantic Ocean: http://www.safezonellc.com/moracat.html
Last edited by ToneWood on Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wanted - new or 2nd hand Hook/Crook/Spoon Knife

Postby Vicky » Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:37 pm

There is even a left handed one!!!!! :shock:
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Re: Wanted - new or 2nd hand Hook/Crook/Spoon Knife

Postby louvres » Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:52 pm

I see, yes I agree about having a small set of tools. I have seen some people apparently carve spoons with only a normal knife, which I can kind of see how they could do it if you keep the bowl shallow, I also think the bowl of spoons are a lot more shallow then I sometimes think they need to be. That would be ideal, just using one tool and maybe the axe for the rough work. It sounds like fun just using one knife for an entire spoon, and would be a good exercise in doing a lot with just 1 simple tool. Thanks for the info about the sheath I will keep that in mind.

That 105 does look just like the 106 yes, you can just shave off that bumpy bit where the blade begins if it got in the way too, thanks. I cam across that hook knife, but saw the company who makes it is in Pakistan, so wondered a lot about the quality and if it would be of mass produced made-in-asia type quality.

I agree, it might be worth investing in something I know will last long and do the job well. Then the hunt for greenwood is what remains :shock: woods aren't all around like they used to be.

Looks like that last link you gave, dont think they deliver to the uk according to their page on shipping, thanks though.
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