Belt sander / grinder

discussion of anything related to tools

Moderators: jrccaim, Bob_Fleet, gavin, Robin Fawcett, HughSpencer

Belt sander / grinder

Postby RJWEcology » Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:40 am

Good morning,

Can anyone suggest a belt sander / grinder combo which is good enough for a hobbyist? Nothing too fancy - just good value / engineering. I've seen some on ebay (like Clarke, Draper, Sealey and Scheppach) but I wanted to see what everyone else has used / is using before I look any further :)
“When one tugs at a single thing in nature, he finds it attached to the rest of the world” ~ John Muir
User avatar
RJWEcology
Regular
 
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:33 am
Location: West Midlands

Re: Belt sander / grinder

Postby gavin » Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:14 pm

Are you shaping edges for sharpening?
Are you shaping wooden ware?

Could you offer any link or pref an image of grinder PLUS sander? I have not seen such.
Gavin Phillips


- teacher, demonstrator & supporter of greenwoodworking & human-powered turning
- Supplier of Fun & Confidence

info@shed-therapy.com
http://www.shed-therapy.com
User avatar
gavin
Regular
 
Posts: 1595
Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 4:17 pm
Location: Dalbeattie, near Dumfries, Scotland

Re: Belt sander / grinder

Postby bulldawg_65 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:21 pm

Phil Steele
bulldawg_65
Regular
 
Posts: 443
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:10 am
Location: Noblesville, IN USA

Re: Belt sander / grinder

Postby RJWEcology » Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:45 am

That's similar to what I've been looking at. They are all similar prices - I just wanted to know if there are any "bad" ones to avoid!
“When one tugs at a single thing in nature, he finds it attached to the rest of the world” ~ John Muir
User avatar
RJWEcology
Regular
 
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:33 am
Location: West Midlands

Re: Belt sander / grinder

Postby RJWEcology » Sat Sep 07, 2013 8:15 am

gavin wrote:Are you shaping edges for sharpening?
Are you shaping wooden ware?

Could you offer any link or pref an image of grinder PLUS sander? I have not seen such.


Bit of both really - something I can use for basic grinding of tools but also a sanding belt for wood / profiling (am currently experimenting with making some knives).

http://www.clarkeinternational.com/shop ... ing-wheels
“When one tugs at a single thing in nature, he finds it attached to the rest of the world” ~ John Muir
User avatar
RJWEcology
Regular
 
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:33 am
Location: West Midlands

Re: Belt sander / grinder

Postby gavin » Sat Sep 07, 2013 5:21 pm


Ok: Image
Whilst I followed the link to get image above, I could not see price. How much is it delivered inc VAT?

To maintain your turning tools, I think this will be shite, because:

The dry grinding wheel is 150 mm. This tool lacks jigs to hold your tools. The fact that it is dry grinding means you'll be constantly removing your tool to cool it in a bucket of water. Each removal and replacement means your alignment each successive time will alter slightly - and since it lacks jigs or a long tool rest to hold any jigs, you will struggle to maintain a consistent bevel. Do not take my word for this but go and borrow someone elses. Take a bar of mild steel and see if you can grind a freehand consistent angle. If your turning tool works and is (say) 27 degrees, you want to keep it at that, not 25 nor 30 . If you can maintain consistency, I will be astonished as the tool rest here is so close to the stone.

The diameter of the wheel is also small. Tormek recommend you change their stones when your diameter is 160 mm.

How easily and quickly can you remove the belt and change it ?



For knife-making, it may work. The grit on the stone looks very aggressive for initial edge-shaping. Can you get a smaller i.e. less coarse grit stone? Do try grinding a mild steel blade on some borrowed stone of 150 mm and same grit as this, but I doubt it will work. I am sure you'll get more informed comment on this at http://www.britishblades.com
Gavin Phillips


- teacher, demonstrator & supporter of greenwoodworking & human-powered turning
- Supplier of Fun & Confidence

info@shed-therapy.com
http://www.shed-therapy.com
User avatar
gavin
Regular
 
Posts: 1595
Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 4:17 pm
Location: Dalbeattie, near Dumfries, Scotland

Re: Belt sander / grinder

Postby SeanHellman » Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:58 pm

I have the Clarke as in the photo above. Really I think it is a pile of pants. t is really under powered, I can stop the motor with moderate pressure from any tool. The linisher belt is a pain in the arse to change and you will not be changing belts very often at all. Tracking is a pain to use. The same will apply to all tools in this price range. I would use a portable belt sander and use that upside down in a vice, far more power.

I would recommend the Sorby Proedge, if you find that it is not for you after you have made a few knives etc you can sell it for good money. A new pro edge for about £250 you should be able to sell it for up to £200 after a couple of years.
"Scarcely anything is original- it`s very hard to be totally inventive, so I am not terribly interested in originality. Vitality is all I care about" Clive James
Green wood courses, tools, demonstrations.
http://www.seanhellman.com/woodwork/
User avatar
SeanHellman
Regular
 
Posts: 929
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:13 pm
Location: South Devon

Re: Belt sander / grinder

Postby gavin » Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:14 pm

SeanHellman wrote:I would recommend the Sorby Proedge, if you find that it is not for you after you have made a few knives etc you can sell it for good money. A new pro edge for about £250 you should be able to sell it for up to £200 after a couple of years.

Sean,
Do you have a Sorby Proedge?
Do you think it worth the money?
Gavin Phillips


- teacher, demonstrator & supporter of greenwoodworking & human-powered turning
- Supplier of Fun & Confidence

info@shed-therapy.com
http://www.shed-therapy.com
User avatar
gavin
Regular
 
Posts: 1595
Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 4:17 pm
Location: Dalbeattie, near Dumfries, Scotland

Re: Belt sander / grinder

Postby Brian Williamson » Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:38 pm

Just to muddy the waters a bit, I'll offer a different perspective to Sean and Gavin.

I know nothing about belt sanders/linishers. I've never used one and and have no opinion about them whatsoever.

I've also never used a Clarke grinder, so I have no opinions about them, either.

However, 40 odd years ago i was given a double-wheel, 6" diameter, dry grinder by my Dad as a birthday present. I still have it and (possibly because I knew no alternative) I learned how to use it and I still use it for grinding everything. Chisels, axes, billhooks, plane blades, the lot.

Some years ago I bought a Tormek. It's OK. I do use it, especially for little blades like spokeshave and plane blades. But my go-to grinder is still the dry, high-speed one.

Gavin is half right when he says that you have to take the blades off to cool them, but this is generally only with tools that have been incorrectly ground and when you have to remove a lot of metal. Once they are correctly ground chisels only need a single pass and don't need cooling. If you have to cool them in water, use a large container and don't let go of your grip.

Jigs are OK up to a point, but if you learn to rely on them you'll never learn to use yourgrinding tool properly. By which I mean freehand. When I worked in a boatyard, the foreman reground all the twist drill bits (except the really small ones) freehand on a highspeed grinder. I never learned to do that; I use a jig, but I'm happy grinding the inside curve of a billhook freehand.

Also the tool rest. Mine is pretty much the same as the one shown in your photo. I dare say that I could have improved it, but I've learned to use it and it does me fine.

This probably won't help you decide about a dual use machine, but please don't think too unkindly about high speed, dry grinders. It's all about practice.

Two bits of advice about high speed grinders. If you have a two wheel grinder, put the same medium grit on both wheels (especially if you're going to grind axes and billhooks). Then you can grind left-handed on one wheel and right-handed on the other and keep the handles away from the non-grinding stone.

And make sure that you dress the wheels regularly. I think that the principal reason that people overheat their tools is because they are forcing them on to clogged-up wheels in an attempt to get them to cut. A well dressed wheel cuts quickly and therefore (relatively) cooly.

Brian.
Last edited by Brian Williamson on Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
http://www.westcountrycoppice.co.uk

undergreenwood.wordpress.com

'Measure twice and cut once'
User avatar
Brian Williamson
Regular
 
Posts: 344
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:33 am
Location: Stroud, Glos..

Re: Belt sander / grinder

Postby emjay » Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:37 pm

Spot on Brian. I had a working life in machine shop engineering and the dry grinder was what we used and I still do now. On a long blade a series of fast light skims along the length will do. you can tell when the edge is reached by the direction of the sparks. For chisels and gouges, a black marker on the stem of the blade where it touches the rest is a help. Twist drills are an acquired skill, you have to roll the drill across and up the surface of the wheel as you twist it, and the centre web often needs thinning down.
Mick
emjay
Regular
 
Posts: 145
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:22 pm
Location: mid wales

Re: Belt sander / grinder

Postby ToneWood » Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:54 pm

Interesting. There is a website on using high-speed grinders for turning tools - they recommend using a certain type of wheel (white?) which apparently doesn't heat tools up as the cheap wheels fitted to many grinders.
SeanHellman wrote:...I would recommend the Sorby Proedge, if you find that it is not for you after you have made a few knives etc you can sell it for good money. A new pro edge for about £250 you should be able to sell it for up to £200 after a couple of years.
That's a good way to look at it. The Sorby Proedge appears to be built like the proverbial brick outhouse + Pro-grade rigs available for it. You don't see a lot of them second hand - like Tormeks, I suspect folk buy them and then stick with them.

Noticed this Swedish big slow wet wheel & small fast dry wheel on ebay today: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/130985429201? ... 1438.l2649
Image
It would suit me very well but perhaps lack of jigs would be an issue for some. But I already have 2 good wet wheels & I don't think I could explain another to the family! :D (Would still like a big, crude, treadle wet wheel for use outside - saw the perfect one but it was too far away :()
ToneWood
Regular
 
Posts: 1846
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:21 pm

Re: Belt sander / grinder

Postby SeanHellman » Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:46 pm

Gavin, I do think the Pro edge is worth it and if you read Living woods mag you will see my article about them. I like linishers and prefer them over bench grinders. That said I find bench grinders useful for some stuff, but do make sure they have enough power. I have used all sorts over the years and can get good results with most of it, as Brian says it is all about practise. The problem I have is crappy tools, sold cheap that only just manage to do the job. Like a puppy a tool is for life and not few a few years until it breaks and ends up in landfill. Buy the best you can afford and if you can buy British.
"Scarcely anything is original- it`s very hard to be totally inventive, so I am not terribly interested in originality. Vitality is all I care about" Clive James
Green wood courses, tools, demonstrations.
http://www.seanhellman.com/woodwork/
User avatar
SeanHellman
Regular
 
Posts: 929
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:13 pm
Location: South Devon

Re: Belt sander / grinder

Postby jrccaim » Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:29 am

My 1p worth. Personal opinion only. A belt grinder is worth the money only if you make tools (which I do). I do not own one of the machines that started the thread. I simply clamp a secondhand DIY belt sander ($10 at a thrift store, Makita at that) in a Workmate at a convenient angle, and have at it. Reason is, a belt grinder removes a whole lot of metal in very little time. Of course the amount you remove in a given time depends on the grit of the belt, and a wide variety of grits is available mass-market. I do recommend weighting down the Workmate. It tends to wander around the floor if you don't. I use really hefty birch logs. The best Workmates are the British pre-Black and Decker variety, they were much better made than the current crop of B&D plastic junk. I think that our models, the real bodgers of the 18th and 19th centuries, would have killed for a Workmate. I know, they are not bodgerlike, but neither are mootorised grinders, either. If you wish to sharpen as opposed to make, why a file is your best friend. Lacking a Workmate, clamp the belt sander in a big heavy vise. Oops, vice. So I personally would buy a really cheap belt sander, DIY store variety, and clamp it in a Workmate, and I would not spend my hard-earned Pounds, shillings and pence on a commercial grinder. I would gladly shell out the dollars or quid for a pre-Black and Decker Workmate, made in the UK and not in the USA or China. And I would find a secondhand belt grinder. Presto, stationary belt sander. Good enough for all bodger purposes. I find the disk sanders on the commercial machines useless. Unless you are making wooden clocks, which I am doing at the moment. But that is a most unbodgerlike activity, way off-topic.

Now here is what I consider the theory of the thing. If you are making a tool, there are several stages. Just so as we know where we are, suppose we are making a knife. First we have to cut it out to shape. Off topic. Then we have to rough out the edge. It is here where the belt sander excels. You need to remove a whole lot of metal in a very short time. In other words, rough it out. Do it on the belt sander. Then probably you want to heat treat your knife, again off topic. Then you have to refine the edge. For this I think the wet grinder is the thing. Lots of stuff on this board on that subject! Finally you have to hone it and for this I use in succesion diamond hones and Japanese Waterstones. By hand. There is no better way to get a good edge on a knife. For an axe I might use the belt sander once. To get the bevels where I want them, usually a lot less than the 45 deg a store-bought axe has. After that I file, and use a hone to get the final edge. So at each stage of toolmaking, you remove less and less material. Belt sander just one stage in a process. If I had to spend my money on a power tool to grind axes or adzes or knives I would spend it on a wet grinder. Indeed that is what I did. I can improvise the belt grinder.

BTW a note on the "Clarke" brand name (It applies to many another brand name). In spite of its seemingly British name the thing is actually made in China. It has been, as they say, "rebadged", no doubt from Rong Fu to Clarke. Not making that up, Rong Fu is an actual Chinese toolmaker. Not that many of them, as it turns out. They are rebadged under many names. In the UK, Warco and Chester come to mind. In the US, Grizzly and Harbor Freight. I happen to own a Clarke small (6cm) pillar drill. It has been completely satisfactory. But what I find with these Chinese tools is that they are a bit spotty. One day they are right on the money but next day something slipped and the tools made that day lacked something. Maybe they forgot to heat-treat some important part.So the tool is junk. It is roulette. I do not denigrate the Chinese. They are doing in a decade what it took us all one hundred years to discover. I do not blame them if they slip up sometimes. I blame myself for not checking the thing out thoroughly.

Usually apologize for a very long post like this one, but not this time.
User avatar
jrccaim
Regular
 
Posts: 1082
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 3:53 am
Location: Willow, Alaska USA

Re: Belt sander / grinder

Postby AlexanderTheLate » Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:20 pm

JRCCaim, never apologize for your long posts, they are always very informative.

Personally, I would not spend anywhere near that much for a grinder. What I use now is an angle grinder's grinding disk mounted on a washing machine motor. $2 CAD for the disk, and the motor came from a scrap yard. A belt sander should not be too difficult to rig up, or could probably be bought on it's own for cheaper. As for brands, I really cannot help you, Bulldawg mentioned Grizzly, and I have not heard much bad about them (though, mind I have never used one either), I would look at the big names, chinese made though they may be, they probably won't be too bad, unlike some of the smaller lesser known companies like Clarke, where you really don't know what you are getting.
I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots.- Unknown.
AlexanderTheLate
Regular
 
Posts: 132
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:10 am
Location: Central Newfoundland,

Re: Belt sander / grinder

Postby Arithan » Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:03 am

Thanks, everyone for all these info.

and sorry for bumping

Here is my sander, it is a Yates American S70 disc and oscillating spindle sander combo. I got it as a project, the previous owner dumped it over and broke the oss casting so the table is off of it there and in the other pic of the disc, I pulled that table so I could pick it up easier with my forklift. Disc is 30" diameter and 5/8" thick. It is in the 1750lb range. The last 2 pics are what is should look like together, these are from a guy I know that has one and I got the correct miter guage from.

I have the broken casting app halfway fixed, and the clutch mechanism fixed properly now, need to finish the gearbox casting and the trunnion and bolt it all back on. I have been using the disc sander side for awhile now, works awesome.

I also have a Powermatic #30 12" disc and 6x48 belt, a Porter Cable G4 belt grinder 4x52 and a couple 2x72 shop made ones in the works and a Duro 6x44.
View user's profile
Arithan
new member
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:40 pm
Location: North Bergen,New Jersey


Return to Tools

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests

cron